International Women's Day Podcast - Part 1

Swami Purnananda in discussion with Sharanya Bharathwaj

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:10

So women really have this great advantage of this empathy, this natural empathy, this natural compassion. Uh if you want this right brain thinking, that's not to say that women uh are not intellectually oriented or anything like that, it's just that there is an inbuilt nurturing aspect biologically built in and has an advantage.

SPEAKER_02 0:33

To leading dialogues, a space where we pass from the noise of everyday life to reflect on deeper truths that guide and enrich our journey. On this special occasion, we wish all our viewers a very happy International Women's Day, a day to celebrate the strength, wisdom, compassion that shape the families, societies, and spiritual culture.

SPEAKER_03 1:03

Thank you, Sharanya. Good. Yes. So maybe I kill kick off the conversation because this is a conversation, and um ask you for yourself what does women's day mean to you?

SPEAKER_02 1:19

Well, um, every person who's born in this world celebrates their birthday because it's a special day. Similarly, a special day is being dedicated for women, probably indicating that they need more of what is needed, in the sense they need more of, of course, we do have independence, freedom, and all that nowadays, but still there is something which is lagging behind, probably to uh symbolically say that there's a celebration, and also as a note of gratitude for all that we have improved, you know, from evolved from where it was in the past.

SPEAKER_03 1:56

Yeah, I mean that makes sense. I don't suppose it was so long ago that women were denied voting rights, I mean, in relation to the overall history of humanity. Uh so I think it's fair to say that um the classical women's role, I mean, we were discussing earlier as well, that in the 1950s in America, for example, Europe and what have you, post-war um society, uh, the kind of generalized idea of uh a fulfilled woman was somebody who is houseproud in the kitchen, using actually the latest uh tools and um kitchen machinery, if you will, uh, that was available. You know, there was a lot of investor investment and in uh washing machines and cookers and so on and so forth. And the expectation was the husband went to work and came back and uh like that, you know. So uh obviously we've shifted from those ideas and ideals today, but I think the context is broader because internationally we still find oppression of the gender women uh in Africa, in what we call developing countries, you know. And that I suppose needs to change. United Nations recognizes that and encourages bursaries, educational bursaries, particularly for women, uh over and above that for uh the males, you know.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

So Maji, yesterday we went to a friend's place and there we're talking about this international women's day celebrations. And all the men started saying, you know, women always have the upper hand, they always celebrate, but men's, you know, this we don't even know when if there is a men's day celebrations. So nowadays it's like you know, the other way around.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

Well, men would say every day is a men's celebration if they have a chauvinist tendency. But you see the difficulty, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Yes, obviously. Yeah. Of course, yes. I do understand that uh things, although things have changed progressively, the mindset and the mentality of the people but the human brain is still primitive, so probably that needs a change and improvement.

SPEAKER_03 4:16

Well, I think there are generalized uh traditional roles still in people's minds for men and women. And there is uh the fact of the matter is that women are much more vulnerable in the sense that in domestic violence, where you find drunkenness and a man comes back uh home, for example, after a drinking session, and that automatically can lead in many cases to violence. Now uh it is a social problem. It may not be the norm, but when it comes to domestic violence, it's normally the women and the children who are the vulnerable elements. Same thing in developing countries also, and I'm thinking, particularly in Africa, where and I'm particularly thinking of an industry, the mining industry, where within a mine you find accommodation for families, working families, and on payday the man takes his wages and spends them on drink and then there's nothing left for household things, you know. And this is in modern times, you know. So that's an example where we have globally a long way to go in terms of social equality. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:39

So can I just ask you one question? Um from a spiritual perspective, what does it mean to be born as a woman? In the journey towards self-realization, what advantage might women naturally have?

SPEAKER_03 5:55

Well, to start with, when we talk about spirit, spiritual, we have to understand it has no gender.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 6:01

Absolutely. Yeah, so what is it like to be born as a woman say? Spirituality as a process we can talk about. But we have to understand what we mean by spirit. So from the ancient Vedanta point of view, and for viewers, we have to explain what is Vedanta, you see. So it is seen to be the universal, ancient universal philosophy that highlights and addresses the fundamental unity of existence, uh, which is by its nature absolute. And so, in terms of how you express it to understand that, we can do it through uh through spiritual practice. So every religion holds that, but even beyond an outside religion, we're all faced with the same kinds of problems. And we would expect there to be a generalized, united, standard answer to all those problems, a solution. And so I think Vedanta, which means really the essence or the fundamental penultimate truth, and that means it's either true or it's not true. It has to be universally true. Test of universal truth is exactly that, that it's applicable universally. And what it means then is we're not arguing whether your point of view is true, my point of view is true, or whether a religion is true, or whether a uh scientific humanism is true. Uh truth has a characteristic that it is universally understood, verified, repeatable, and that it is our experience, it's all based on experience. So uh I think we are all born with certain uh instrumental qualities which assist us on this journey, if you want to like to call it a journey. And uh so womenly womanly qualities have a speciality. We cannot say quality equals men and women are the same, the same characteristics, and even within that it's complex because we all are um have individual characteristics developed from childhood. You know the nature, nurture aspect. That's right, yeah. And so our personality develops when we are one foot, everybody else is six foot. And also based on the environment that they're based on the environment, and the parents bring the primary environment, or whoever plays parental role uh provides the uh the initial uh personality forming environment. So uh there are those things. So that takes us away a little bit from generalizations. Um we understand, of course, that uh women are ideally, from our point of view, women are ideally mothers. This is not really accepted as a modern idea, but I think it's a valid idea because the motherly qualities that uh women have specifically is to their advantage. And we say there's no higher love really than a mother's love.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

That's right, Swami J, if I can interrupt you.

SPEAKER_03 9:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

Um but nowadays you see all the fathers also parenting the children equally, just not the because ladies have started working and also all the parents, all the dads have started taking care of the child in the night, being infant or the babies. So they also must be exhibiting the motherhood qualities as well.

SPEAKER_03 9:58

Yes, but uh there is no man who nurtures a child from birth. The first facial recognition is that of the mother, that's right. And the child naturally has a tendency to go toward the mother's breast and be fed. Yeah, with every mammal, that is the case. So there is a nurturing quality that nature builds in.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

Is it because a child remains in the mother's womb? Does it start from there?

SPEAKER_03 10:25

Absolutely, there's a natural relationship that takes place, but also there's a hormonal aspect to it that women really are uh built in a certain way uh to be nurturing, caring people. Uh, men have a lot to learn about that. So even though they might share parental responsibility, maybe even equally, yes, there's something fundamental about the women's natural uh affinity for mothering. And I don't think we can get away from it.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 10:59

As you said, even the mammals and animals and uh well swans, swans take equal parental responsibility. Penguins, uh uh, male penguins are quite happy to sit on the egg while the to relieve their mother, as I understand it, you know. So um so there is a general empathy of a partnership. The human understanding is partnership. The human understanding of human uh relationships in a family context, in a parental context, in a romantic context, would be that male and female are really two different components, two sides of the same coin, if you like. Now, if you look at a coin, it's not rocket science to understand that side one is not identical to side two. And yet they are complementary.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 11:51

You have to have the one, you cannot have one without the other.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

Yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely, Swami J. If you have noticed, uh there was a monkey called punch, it's still in Japan. So uh the mother of that monkey had actually abandoned the child from birth, so it was so much longing for the love of the mother that they had given a you know soft toy.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

An IKEA, you know, a soft cuddle toy, and it's been carrying it all over the zoo and all that. Yeah. So uh, as you say, you know, the uh quality of a mother is soon felt by the child.

SPEAKER_03 12:27

Yes, I mean if the child, if for example, kittens, if there are in a litter of kittens, I don't know if the litter is the right word, but there it is. Um so uh sometimes you think litter is all over the place, you know. Uh but uh the the the one kitten that is excluded because of competition, because of its individual personality, and it doesn't get to the mother's teeth in the same way. It's not just the nourishment, it's the warmth of the mother. It's the, you know, and so cats require it. That's why they like one of the reasons why they like stroking and so on and so forth.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 13:04

Their memory, if you will, of the comfort of being with the mother, nurtured by the mother. We associate nourishment with the nourishment giver. That's the mother. Now you may say, well, what about in this day of bottle-fed babies?

SPEAKER_00 13:22

You know?

SPEAKER_03 13:23

Well, I'm not a big fan of bottle. There's there was the old adage, it used to be a good slogan, breastfed is best fed.

SPEAKER_02 13:31

Ah, beautiful. Yes, straight. Yeah. Anything we get closer to the nature, it's uh more beneficial and uh healthier for the child as well.

unknown 13:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:42

But so far we've talked because you brought about spirituality. So uh our view really is that we are born with a directional purpose. Now that can be contested, and modern materialism would contest that. Uh, there's that point of view. And I think there are modern values that want to displace the idea of a purposeful directional life that maybe spiritual or religious values would emphasize. And so our view would be that it is not a linear thing starting from A and going off to B for no reason, but there is a circular or a cyclical aspect to this. And so we don't think, you know, that birth is the beginning and that death is the end. That's our view. Now, the view is logical when you think that nature behaves exactly in a cyclical way. When a seed develops into a tree, it's not the end of it because the tree then gives another seed and the whole perpetuation goes on. The tree species continues. So it's very difficult, really, technically speaking, to identify where death is. Now, if you accept that our life is a kind of journey with a certain destiny, and you accept the unity of existence, we're really all on the same directional journey, even though it may be individually different. And we celebrate those differences because we are constitutionally different, and so we should be different. In that same way, uh, women have their specific different qualities, men have their specific different qualities. And it seems to me that one without the other is completely beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

Okay.

unknown 15:36

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 15:37

So yin yang. So the two things, yes, yin yang. So the two are not only uh indelibly combined, but also they are necessarily complementary to the journey. And so most people don't take a monastic life or anything. Most people go into a relationship that uh has children and a family life and so on. And uh in that way, um you can see there's a complexity there because the children are looking to the parents for their example, knowingly or unknowingly, they're aping, they're copying. And uh so they'll copy good traits, they'll copy bad traits also. That's right. What in uh transactional analysis and psychology is called, you know, um parent, the parent script, information being fed in, the child taking that. And if the child doesn't mature, then uh it won't be able to discriminate what is useful to take and what is not. So uh the uh the complex social system is child, parents or those who are playing the parental role, the total environment of peers, uh, the psychosocial evolution of going to school, all of these provide inputs and serve to develop somebody. And then, of course, there's the individual urge to say, I'm in charge now. Uh typically that happens, you know, uh early 20s or in teens.

SPEAKER_02 17:20

So you mean by in charge the doorship that you're talking about?

SPEAKER_03 17:23

Well, yes, it means, yeah, it means okay, I no longer have to depend on my parents. I no longer have to uh be forced to study, I can choose a career now, I can choose a direction. I have an independence of free choice, which in our uh scriptural text is uh described as you know uh having the capacity to upgrade our thinking, to elevate ourselves or lower ourselves and make ourselves responsible, not blame society, not blame this or that, but take responsibility for it and therefore chart our own course, which has the characteristics of individuality. And then within that context, of course, we have to use our natural skills and abilities, genetic or otherwise, and so women really have this great advantage of this empathy, this natural empathy, this natural compassion, uh, if you want this right brain thinking. That's not to say that women uh are not intellectually oriented or anything like that, it's just that there is an inbuilt nurturing aspect biologically built in and has an advantage.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

Yes, yes. And also, is it correct to say that uh women are emotionally inclined? So that emotion factors work well with spirituality, is that true?

SPEAKER_03 18:49

Yes, but we get into trouble for saying it.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

For saying what sorry?

SPEAKER_03 18:54

Well, because it can be interpreted. Somebody would say, Oh, you say all women are emotional. Oh, you see? So that nobody I don't think any woman would like to be labeled in this way. But uh, I wouldn't say that, I wouldn't put it like that. I would say that there is more of a tendency toward, um, well, in terms of spiritual things, spiritual life, uh, a breadth of a willingness to be more broad-minded about certain things, which seemed to be statistically in the realm of women. And that is probably why uh in organized religion, for example, women are really the great, great supporters, you know. Uh, whereas in comparison, uh, men might might not be so much inclined, you know. And that makes women, I think, and I hate to generalize, but it makes them more open to creative ideas, I think.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Oh, yes, you know. Yes, absolutely, Swami G. So, what do you think is the most powerful way a mother can transmit spirituality to her children?

SPEAKER_03 20:09

Well, by being a mother, by being uh nurturing, by being understanding, because uh uh the tendency of a mother is to protect the child at all costs. Whereas a man may hesitate.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

Is that true, Swamiji, even in modern days?

SPEAKER_03 20:27

I would say it's true. I would say it's true. And I don't think you see, even though the traditional roles have in a way been broken to some extent, some extent.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:38

I say some extent because a working mother who then has to go through pregnancy and has to take leave and so on and so forth, uh, well, in the context of business life, for example, uh businesses may see that as a disadvantage. And so uh men uh would still tend to be the hunter-gatherers, if you will, and go to work and the traditional idea and the breadwinner, that kind of thing, I assume. And so uh we're trying to get some kind of equality, but we can't avoid the flavors of the traditional role somehow. Just for practical purposes. Um, so anyway, uh how does uh how does a child learn anything, spiritual or otherwise, behavioral, for example, traits and so on, is exactly from the parents, and the mother has the role really of being the per the one that a child can resort to in the same way as they had to resort to to the mother for nurturing and protection.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 21:57

So we can say that the overall understanding of motherhood would involve qualities of protection, nurturing, understanding. I'm not saying all mothers are like this. Yes, yes. There's a human element as well. But how to bring uh because especially in a place like our you see there's there's a kind of thing which says you see uh the demon of the 20th century would have been Hitler who is portrayed as Hitler and so people say well uh if I knew that Hitler was born I would kill the baby Hitler you see and I my argument is that no you'd wait until he was a teenager. You'd wait until he was a teenager because that's the problematic area exactly exactly so I mean it's uh human nature is human nature we all got out get on each other's nerves no doubt but we have to be understanding and we have to use the feminine what I would describe as feminine qualities in a disturbed world where there's evidently an increase of uh an increase of a blase attitude toward masculine you might say it's historically always been there and I would have to agree but we know more about it now because of the media the power of the media yes yes absolutely but um that can lead to a kind of um impersonal attitude toward the issues of suffering uh displacement of people such as you know creating huge refugees I don't know what the latest statistics are but there are more refugees now than have ever been for before in human history uh there's more slavery as it's classified today now than has ever been before in the past and uh so uh we need to have the qualities of overall empathy compassion empathy I feel what the other person is feeling that's a little that's much more than what you others and other shoes yeah yeah yeah and to uh more importantly now when it comes to spirituality is to understand that spirit has no divisions has no gender and so when we look to people or to things or to events in the light of spirituality that is one spirit then there's an immediate equality and so it's to cultivate that view and we and so parents have got the responsibility really to bring children to that point of a unity of understanding that really is classically spiritual life that's what makes uh different approaches to what we might call spirituality as a common factor that we are looking for a unity of existence. It's not just in spirituality or religion or what have you it's in human nature to find the highest and deepest generalization of things. So we that's why everybody is looking for a combination in science of a theory of everything that will combine the we might say microscopic scale if you will of quantum physics with the macro scale as it were of general relativity so that's a that's a kind of holy grail which is being sought and I'm not sure if you'd ever get there but the point is to look for an underlying generalization which is there that will explain everything. And so the proponent the modern proponent of what we call the Vedanta system is Swami Vivekalanda. Many viewers may not know of that but you you have the advantage of Google who really highlighted this idea of seeking the higher the generalization as really part of the oriental way of thinking about things. When I know the fundamental element of chemistry let's say hydrogen if I know hydrogen I know pretty much everything on the periodic table because it's a variation of that. And the classical example says if I know gold I'll know every ornament made from gold. Yes there's no gold and a ring I know everything. If I know clay I know every object made from clay so if I look to the unity of existence I have solved every single human problem you can think of including a perceived division between men and women beautiful